{The List-} Civilizations

[DarkCloud]

List Updated. And Continued below... This is an above-post overflow thing... Blast myself for not remembering the character limit

[DarkCloud]

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7.0.0 Civilization Traits
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*Perhaps One Trait should be able to fill two slots?
-Brent

*Perhaps there should be some civs that have a bonus 3rd trait?
-DarkCloud

*Some wonders of the world can either give the trait, or give opportunity to add one, or freely change the traits for some time.
-MxM

*Each civ should have like 4 or 5 or 10 special attributes out of a list of as many as they can come up with, instead of just 2
-Kramerman

*It'd be cool if resources were somehow attached to civs. Like maybe there are like 3 times as many iron deposits in the game but only a one in 3 chance of finding them, and the chance is higher for certiain civs.
Therefore if the xxx civilization had a good Mining Trait, then it could discover more iron deposits whereas the civ with the Hunting trait could only find 1, the miner would find 4... Sort of a "Search and Discover" sort of thing.)
-wrylachlan

*Or how about horses that tend to migrate towards a "horse-friendly" culture like the mongols. If there is a mongol city within 5 tiles of horses they'll move one tile every ten turns to get within their radius. Or maybe if you take care of them (irrigate their tile) they have a percentage chance of generating a second herd, and that chance is higher for the Mongols.
-wrylachlan

7.0.1 Give the AI a Target Philosophy
*Please, give the AI a target to follow. Everyone wants to win, but some civilization prefers to win by domination, others by diplomatic achievements. They should be intelligent enough to determine if their starting position makes this way of winning possible at all - starting in a huge swamp will not actually give you a huge bonus. I would have expected the Zulu, for example, to be a very aggresive people, giving you with one hand and threatening you with the other, regardless of their current strategic and financial situation.
-Cozy_22303

7.0.2 Switching Off Traits
*I couldn't care less about UUs or civ traits. Utterly meaningless fluff, IMO. So long as they give you an option to switch them off.
-Sandman

7.1.0 Specific Trait Ideas
*Authoritarian/Obedient - Cheaper courthouses and police stations. Reduced corruption. Less unhappiness from forced labor. War weariness is reduced.
*Fecund (couldn't come up with a non-pejorative sounding word. "Breeder" doesn't sound good either) - cheaper granaries. Possibly cheaper workers, settlers, harbors, aqueducts, and/or hospitals. Cities (pop 6-12) generate extra food on city square. Metropolises (pop 13+) generate even more extra food on city square). Workers possibly irrigate faster (but no other terrain improvements are faster).
*Pacifist/Green/Tree Hugger - non-military based (no barracks, units, etc.) production is cheaper (10-20%). Population produces less 10-20% pollution. Cultural improvements are 10% cheaper. Extra resources from jungle and tundra tiles. Military Morale is VERY LOW. People riot if there are more than 2 military units per city.
-sophist/DarkCloud

*Offensive/Defensive
*Sedentary/Nomadic
*Forest Dwellers/Mountain Dwellers (Ed: Personally I think this is more of a scripting issue than a civ attribute)
*Urban/Rural
*Industious/Environmental
Kramerman

*Scientific
*Religious
*Militarilistic
*Industrious
*Seafaring
*Agricultural
*Expansionistic
*Commercial
Nuclear Master

7.2.0 Altering Traits
*With each change of government, the civ can change the traits (like social engineering in AC). Example: communist revolution in Russia, made that country be militaristic, industrial, may be scientific as well.
*Different governments might allow a different number of traits
*Some of the traits should be fixed even with changes of government.
Example: Communist government must have militaristic trait, can not have agricultural trait, and can chose to other traits
-MxM

*You could possibly alter during gameplay slightly by using the SMAC-like social engineering and government: (Choosing which would give penalties and bonuses)
-Kramerman

7.3.0 Modifications to Traits
*The Scientific trait: Instead of one free advance for each age(which does little good with so few ages), I'd like to see a bonus when researching, or a bonus for scientific buildings.
-Nikolai

7.4.0 Differing Degrees of Traits' Effectiveness
*Perhaps the traits should differ in degree and effectiveness as well... For example: a civ can be VERY agricultural +++ (as in Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri) or GOOD agricultural ++ or just ABOVE NORMAL agricultural ++.
-Fosse/DarkCloud

7.6.0 Barbarian Civ Traits
*Barbarian Civs should have traits
-Brent

7.7.0 "Hardcoding" Traits
I would like the Traits to not be hardcoded. So instead of a "Commercial" trait you could simply assign different civs different bonuses, like commercial building bonuses, an extra road bonus, extra trade in the city center, etc. etc. This would allow a lot more differentiation of civs.
-wrylachlan

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8.0.0 Civ Placement
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*I like the idea of Civs being more at home in a specific terrain. They should tend to start in a particulat terrain and be able to use that terrain better than other civs can. I want some civs to be at home on the coasts of continents, some on islands.
-Brent

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9.0.0 Unique Units
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9.1.0 Unique Traits For ALL The Units of a Civ
*I'd like a lot more unit based differentiation (not UU's).
Things like maybe the inca units travel along mountains as if they were grasslands.
It still costs as much to climb a mountain or come down, but moving from one mountain to the next is just like grasslands.
-wrylachlan




Conclusion

FILL IN

Respectfully Compiled: DarkCloud
With special thanks to: Asmodean

[DarkCloud]

Overflow post 2.

[Brent]

You know what? When I actually try to list civs that I think should be in, 60 is about right. But to allow for civs suggested by others and not by me, and for greater balance, I think 100 is good for predesigned, and maybe 50 is enough empty slots.

[Wernazuma III]

Whether or not barbarians can become civs through conquest of cities, there should definitely new civs pop out during the game with strong armies, so a weak civ can really fall. Not only the Mongols, but a great variety of civs came out of nowhere. Those civs could be allowed to receive techs when conquering cities, so they can soon cope with their foes and not continue to live in the Stone Age...

[Brent]

If there are a huge number of civs, like 60 to 200, each civ has at least one available Ruler/ Special Character, you can choose to play the entire Culture Group as one Civ, and when you do, the Rulers of the smaller Civs become Special Characters you can use as Governors, Advisors, Military Leaders, Scientific Leaders, Religious Figures, etc.

Include ficticious Civs, based on some of the SMAC factions, such as a Scientific Civ, a Green Civ, a Fundamentalist Civ, etc. Maybe even use the names Miriam Godwinson, Deirdre Skye, etc.

Be able to switch to control another civ when yours dies, maybe be able to carry over the same Ruler.

[Wernazuma III]

1. Guys, I don't want to turn this thread into endless lists of civs which are to include and which not. Where should we propose further possible civs?
I have many ideas and suggestions, maybe we should make an own discussion, only on this subject. I know that "Which Civ to include" is a very touchy and emotional topic and can lead to long discussions which should be handeled seperately.
Maybe Brent or I could lead the discussion, set a maximum of civs we'll include (say 40 core civs, 30 "in queue" and 30 minors), based on the arguments in the discussion and always update the list.

2. Civil War
Could be triggered with a certain chance by certain tech advances like Monotheism, Printing Press, Democracy or Abolishment etc. or by changing government.
Two halves of the civ would be generated and split. They'd have to be in a locked war until one half again controls 2/3rds and then reunite. This would better reflect the temporary nature of most civil wars.
With one or two exceptions: All cities seperated from the capital by ocean or a certain (large) amount of tiles should be considered "colonies". When a Civil War should be triggered, the colonies would revolt and split permanently from the civ. The same goes for cities which once were conquered and are not completely assimilated.

[Brent]

I'm not interested in being in charge of anything really.

[Wernazuma III]

Maybe the controversy of how many civs and whether unique or not could be solved with the concept of minor civs.
Have one one hand side a number of premade "unique" civs and then "non-player" minor civs. Not barbarians, really independantly acting civs with the handicap that they aren't allowed to build settlers and don't have unique units etc.

[DarkCloud]

"Which Civ to include" is a very touchy and emotional topic and can lead to long discussions which should be handeled seperately

I don't see any reason for that- unless people start disputing which civ is better than another civ

I think we have a few good lists here... It's not as though we're having the disputes now that we did back in the age of Ribannah and the Civ III-Civilizations section

[Brent]

But I would want to be able to be a minor civ. This option can be thought of as a way to make the game more difficult. And they should be allowed to build settlers. Maybe three types of civs: 60 to 100 full- featured ones, 90 to 200 playable ones with no special abilities, 250 to 1000 barbarian ones that you can't be and they don't build settlers. You should be able to upgrade any of these in the editor, maybe the game should assume that you might want to.

[Kuciwalker]

Why do you need so many civs? Would you ever play all of them? What's the point of them if they don't differ at all - it's just a name, you might as well remove ALL civs for the effect it would have on gameplay. If you want a bunch, add them yourself, but don't completely remove what is one of the key components of strategy in C3 just for more random text.

[Brent]

Do we need a Number of Civs poll? I wouldn't be surprised if fewer civs wins, and I'll still enjoy the game, it won't bother me much. I get enough fun with C3C. Sky, how many nonplayable Minor Tribes do you think there should be?

If it's plausible, I want there to me no set number of slots for civs, and the original game can start with 60 and add more in expansions. Will expansions and new civs be as closely linked as in Civ 3? Would new civs in scenarios be as big a thing? I liked Civ 2 scenarios, where new civs weren't such a big thing.

[Wernazuma III]

Dark Cloud, you know "once bitten, twice shy"...
However, I've seen this kind of civilization-flame not only here, but also on CFC. My experience is that this always turns into a "mine is bigger than yours" flamefest, unless you simply keep the civs in the list out of debate.
However, I'll provide yet another list of civs, complementary to that of Brent and Stefu, as you know that I put a lot of thought on that while modding.

The ranking is very rough, don't take it too serious. To prevent any greater outcry, I take the 32 from CivIII for granted and only add to them:












North America (7)

Cherokee
Iroquois
Americans
Hopewell/Mississippi
Anasazi/Hopi/Pueblo
Sioux
+Ojibwa

Central America (5)

Mixtecs/Zapotecs
Maya
Aztecs
Olmecs
Toltecs

South America (8)

Aruak
Inca
Chibcha
Mapuche
Tupi
Chimú
Nazca
GuaranÃ

Africa (14)
Zulu
Egypt
Carthage
Ethiopia
Mali/Songhay
Nubians/Meroe
Haussa
Berber
Ashanti
Lunda/Luba
Bornu-Kanem
Kongo
Yoruba
Bantu

Near East (13)

Babylon
Arabs
Persia
Ottomans
Hittites
Sumeria
Israel/Hebrews
Phoenicians
Assyria
Armenians/Urartu
Kurds
Lydians
Nabateans

Middle East/Central Asia (12)

India
Mongols
Kushan
Indus Culture
Tibetans
Choresmians
Tamils/Chola
Khazars
Tocharians
Sikhs
Uzbeks
Uygurs

Far East/SE-Asia (10)

China
Korea
Japan
Khmer
Thai/Siam
Annam
Javans
Malayans
Champa
Arakan/Burmese


Europe (27)
Spain
Portugal
France
Germany
England
Vikings
Celts
Romans
Netherlands
Greeks
Byzantines
Russians
Hungary
Poland
Bulgarians
Lithuania
Minoans
Etruscans
Bohemia
Austria
Serbia
Croatia
Scotland
Finland
Cordobese
Thracians
Bosnia


Oceania (2)
Polynesians
Maori






Changes:
Yoruba --> forgot that the Hittites wer already in
Bantu --> forgot that CivIII has 31 and not 32 civs, so I needed to add 79...
Bosnians --> instead of Basques
Uzbeks --> instead of Denmark
Sikhs --> instead of Palestiniens
Malayans --> instead of Sri Vijaya
Ojibwa --> instead of Latin Americans
Nazca --> instead of Sweden
Maori --> instead of Norway
Nabateans --> instead of Slovenia
Guaranà --> instead of Ireland
Champa --> instead of Sogdians
Uygurs --> somehow still had only 96 civs...
Arakan/Burmese --> somehow still had only 96 civs...
+2 far east civs, maybe in the outer parts of China. I know too little to decide: Maybe the Chiang, Nan-Chao or Hui...

That should be it, makes one hundred civs in total. That got to be enough for major and minor civs, I go to sleep. I don't have any idea if I balanced the list out on continents, but I can't do this anymore until tomorrow. I might make corrections thereafter.
Good night.

[Wernazuma III]

And yes, the number of playable civs should be softcoded, so everyone is free to add what he wants.